CLEVELAND, Ohio — A seismic shift is brewing in Major League Baseball that could fundamentally alter who the Guardians play — and how often they play them – as Commissioner Rob Manfred’s expansion plans take shape.

The Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast pulled back the curtain on these potential changes, revealing a baseball landscape that longtime fans might barely recognize.

The most jarring proposal? Cleveland could find itself in an entirely new division, severing century-old rivalries with Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, and Kansas City.

“I’ve seen some models and I’ve seen some proposals out there that have been pretty interesting. One of them has a realignment that would have the Guardians playing in a division with Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Washington,” host Joe Noga revealed. “So no more rivalry games with or no more season long multiple meetings and series against the White Sox, Twins, Royals and Tigers.”

Let that sink in. Teams that Cleveland has battled (some for over 100 years) would no longer be regular divisional opponents. Instead, the Guardians would face an entirely new set of rivals.

Paul Hoynes didn’t mince words about his reaction: “That new divisional alignment does nothing for me.”

There is, however, one silver lining Hoynes acknowledged: “I like the idea of Cleveland and Pittsburgh in the same division. I think that’d be great. Whenever they played each other in interleague play, I thought it was a good vibe, a good rivalry.”

The potential changes go far beyond just reshuffling divisional opponents. In what would be the most radical change, MLB could consider eliminating the American and National leagues entirely – institutions that have defined baseball for 125 years.

This wouldn’t just affect nostalgic fans. League-based awards are tied to player contracts and bonuses. Records are categorized by league. The entire statistical history of baseball is organized around the AL and NL distinction.

“You would really need a buy in from the players’ union if you’re going to eliminate the American and National league standards.”

One potential benefit of realignment would be more geographically sensible divisions, reducing travel costs significantly.

“With a realignment that would keep teams like Cleveland playing Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Washington, the travel is so much easier for that,” Noga noted.

There’s historical precedent for Cleveland benefiting from realignment. When the AL Central was formed in 1994, then-owner Dick Jacobs initially resisted leaving the AL East, concerned about losing revenue-generating series against the Yankees and Red Sox.

“Dan O’Dowd and John Hart convinced him to go to the Central. And it turned out to be a bonanza for the Guardians,” Hoynes recalled.

Will history repeat itself? Or will the next realignment fundamentally alter the Guardians’ place in the baseball universe? To hear the full discussion about MLB’s radical realignment proposals and what they could mean for Cleveland, tune into the latest Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast.

Podcast transcript

Joe Noga: Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. I’m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes. Hoynsie. The Guardians in Texas getting ready to take on the Rangers opener of a three game series tonight at Globe Light Field in Arlington. Slade Cecconi 5 and 6 with a 4.50 ERA versus Nathan Eovaldi 113 with a 1.76 ERA. Eovaldi’s been really good for the, for the Rangers this year. Cecconi his last couple of time times out, a little bit of a stumble both times after a good stretch of getting deep into games. What’s Slate Cecconi got to do to get back on track?

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, he’s got to finish hitters off, Joe. He’s. He has to, you know, keep the ball in the park and just has to use his, his. Off his spit. You know, his, he has to improve it. His breaking ball pitches. You know, the spin was not good the last time out. He got knocked around and it led to an early exit. So he is, has, has to improve his breaking ball pitches and he’s, you know, he’s got to get ahead of hitters. He’s. He hasn’t been getting ahead of hitters.

Joe Noga: Yeah. Against Atlanta, kind of uncharacteristic was the way that Stephen Vogt described Slade Cecconi’s outing. Four and two thirds innings, allowed 10 hits, six earned runs, struck out three, walk two. And his timeout before that, his previous outing against the White Sox lost that game only went three innings allowed eight hits and five earned runs in that game as well. Prior to that he had, he had gone on a stretch where he was going, you know, at least six innings in a game and you know, looking every bit the part of a, a good middle of the rotation starter for the Guardians. Just you know, don’t know if it, if it’s mechanical or the opposition or what it, what it was. But like you said, the, the breaking pitches weren’t, were not landing as effectively and I believe in the one start he, he said that, you know, they were just taking all of his breaking pitches and hunting fastballs. So yeah, and you got Texas with, with a lineup that’s pretty solid but you know they’ve, they’ve struggled this year. Just. The Guardians need to take advantage in some way of a team that really has sort of fallen off over the last several weeks. Been a bit of a struggle for Texas and in terms of their record, they were within a few games in the AL west just back in the middle of August and now after a week or two, they’ve, they’ve fallen back to about 10 games out.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, Joe, you know, Ciccone, you know, there was some talk, vote was asked about whether, you know, Ciccone may have, you know, may have kind of, you know, maxed himself out a little bit with, with those, although with, you know, several deep starts. Just because he really hasn’t, you know, been through a season like this where he’s been in a row, taking a regular turn in the rotation, stepped into minor leagues so that, you know, maybe know, fatigue was catching up to him. But, you know, he assured us it was not. He didn’t think it was. Not that he just said he was, you know, like we said, wasn’t getting ahead of the count, isn’t, you know, working his spin pitches the way, the way he wants to.

Joe Noga: In the last three weeks, Texas has only won back to back games once. They beat the Yankees on August 4th and 5th. So, you know, this is a team that’s up and down and struggling to, to win and string games together. They were a half game out of the wild card spot, out of a wild card spot on August 5th. And since then they’ve gone, they’ve dropped five and a half games back after losing to the Royals. The guy you gotta watch out for right now in that Texas lineup, you know, all the names, all the big names making big bucks there. Kyle Higashioka is the one. We wouldn’t suspect it, but he entered, entered their game on Thursday batting.3.15 with a.949 OPS over his last, you know, 30 games or so, four doubles, 20 RBIs. He’s, he’s really getting the job done for Texas.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, when, even when he was with the Yankees, Joe, you know, he hit, he hit Cleveland pitching pretty well. You know, he was kind of that sneaky power at the bottom of the lineup. Could hit the ball out of the park. He did a nice job. He did a nice job for the Yankees and obviously he’s doing something right for the Rangers.

Joe Noga: Before the game tonight at Globe Life Field, Hoynsie. The Rangers are going to dedicate a statue to Adrian Beltre last year inducted into the hall of Fame. Adrian Beltre, just one of those guys where wherever he went, he was sort of a beloved figure in Texas, you know, longtime guy, 3000 hit club. Just a guy that everybody loved playing with. So Adrian Beltre getting a special recognition from the Rangers club.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, that’s really cool. Definitely deserves it. A Hall of Famer, kind of under the radar. Hall of Famer, Joe really, you know, when you, if you didn’t really look at his numbers and study his numbers, you know, you think Adrian Beltre bounce around a little bit. Was with a lot of teams, but, you know, just a great, great hitter. Really, really, really, you know, accomplished hitter. Just don’t rub him on the head, Joe.

Joe Noga: That’s, that’s the one thing. Who was it? Elvis Andrus had a, had a thing about just like patting him on the head and he’d freak out every time. The videos of that were really funny. I think we have a, I have a bobblehead of Adrian Beltre and, and Elvis Andrus, sort of that one play where they came together and were catching an infield pop. And it’s just a real memorable guy. Where does he rank in terms of Dominican third baseman? Because the Guardians have a pretty good one on their side of the field.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, this is, you know, this is a guy with a lot. He was a pure power hitter. Definitely. You know, he could hit for average. I just remember him swinging so hard, he’d go down on one knee, you know, and watch him hit balls out of the park when, when he’d hit ball, when he’d make contact. And really, you know, just a good all Player. You know, I think he’s probably a little above Jose right now.

Joe Noga: Yeah, Well, I mean, 3,000 hits, five time Gold Glover, two time Platinum Glover, four time Silver Slugger. He certainly got the, the credentials. Baseball writers named him on 366 out of 385 ballots in, in 2024. So, you know, certainly got the, the, the credentials to be in the hall of Fame. And yeah, he probably ranks above Jose right now in terms of hall of Fame clout. But Jose’s still got some time. We’ll. We’ll see where he goes with that.

Paul Hoynes: I mean, 3,000 hits, that’s. You don’t do that by accident.

Joe Noga: No. And, and you know, who knows if Jose can, can get. I doubt Jose can get to 3,000 hits just, you know, with the different kind of hitter that he is besides Adrian Beltre. And the defense really just sort of separates him there too. You know, you win two Platinum Gloves, you’re doing something right.

Paul Hoynes: Right.

Joe Noga: But that’s, that’s to take nothing away from, from Jose and the, the incredible story that, that he is as he continues his hall of Fame trajectory in his career. All right, Hoynsie, lots going on in, in baseball and you know, throughout the league. And a lot of it, some of it has to. Has an impact on the Guardians. Some of it will have an impact on the guardians, you know, down the line in the future with the collective bargaining agreement and. And, you know, possible TV contracts and things like that. We’ll get into all that. But, you know, wanted to talk about Rob Manfred going on Sunday night baseball at the Little League Classic over the weekend. And he talked about two big things that, you know, made. Made people, and he voluntarily talked about these things. He wasn’t necessarily, you know, poked and prodded and pushed on the issues of expansion and realignment. Those sort of go hand in hand. I think in. In baseball, you want to get to 32 teams. I think the ideal number, as the NFL has shown, is. Is 32 teams. I don’t know how much that dilutes the talent pool for baseball. We’ve seen contraction in the minor leagues and how that has enhanced things for baseball in terms of, you know, accelerating the talent getting. Getting to the major leagues at a younger age by. By contracting, you know, a few years back after Covid expansion. Right now looks like you’re considering of areas Nashville, which would be a very popular destination spot for a lot of teams, possibly Portland, another team that’s another city that’s been talked about having another presence in the Pacific Northwest as well. What do you think of the idea of expanding to those markets or maybe some other markets?

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, Joe, I think it’s interesting. I think you have to. With expansion, you have to do it carefully. You know, I really think you have to be careful, like you were saying, expanding the talent pool. We’ve seen it happen before, you know, and I know Manfred, this has been a big thing for him. He wants to expand before his tenure as commissioner ends. So. But yeah, you know, Nashville is a. You always hear about that. Nashville, Portland. Would they go back to Montreal? I know a lot of, you know, whenever they’ve had an exhibition game there since the Expos left, they’ve drawn big crowds. Puerto Rico, we saw, you know, I went to Puerto Rico when Cleveland played the Twins there in a regular season game. So, yeah, really, you know, I think there’s. There’s a lot of, you know, there’s. There’s a limited number of cities that. That could, you know, you could feel the baseball team, a big league team and be successful, you know, supporting it. And, you know, they’ve all been making their pitches for years to MLB, so we’ll have to see where. When. When this reaches fruition.

Joe Noga: Well, and also, you know, think about this is taking into consideration the Athletics, who are right now sort of in limbo, moving between Oakland and Las Vegas. Right now they’re in Sacramento. You also have to consider what, what’s going to happen with Tampa Bay and their stadium situation. Tropicana Field still not going to be ready. That’s a club that might have to spend another year playing in another minor league stadium as well. Could you consider maybe Salt Lake City or another area like that out west as you want to make sure that things are balanced as well? And that’s, I guess the big problem for me is is there a demand for a major league baseball in cities like Portland, in cities like Salt Lake, in. In an area like Nashville, where Nashville’s got a lot going on, I think. But is. Is Memphis a consideration? Are there other areas that we haven’t even thought about yet?

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, you know, that Nashville, you know, it’s got a rich minor league history. Nashville sounds. I mean, there was a group there that was trying to, with Tony LaRusso was involved, you know, a couple years ago, you know, trying to put to a group together that would buy a big league team or, or, you know, get. Be ready for expansion. So I think that’s probably, you know, a good landing spot. But you bring up an interesting point about the A’s and the Rays. I mean, those are kind of two nomads right now. I would think if before you talk about expansion, you know, you’ve got to find permanent homes for them.

Joe Noga: Yeah. Are the, are the Rays sort of the Jacksonville NFL version in the, in the majors right now? In Major League Baseball right now? You know, Jacksonville seems to be the team that the NFL wants to farm out to play games in London, to play games in Mexico or wherever they want to play their games. Is that something that Manfred, if he wants to experiment with having games in other cities to try and see what the interest is there. I mean, they did just play a game in Bristol, Tennessee, where they had a hundred thousand people come out for it. Could they try and spark interest there by forcing Tampa to go play some of these games abroad? I think. Aren’t the Rays on the list for playing games in Puerto Rico once that comes around?

Paul Hoynes: Well, I do not know that, Joe, but yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me. It’s not that long, you know, a trip to Puerto Rico from Florida, it makes sense.

Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s a lot of areas too. You think about the Gulf coast as well and what you would have to, in terms of a stadium you would have to build there. Something with the considerations for the weather and the heat and the rain possibilities. So just a lot of different areas. And you don’t want to also take away. If you’re expanding, like you said, you bring up the minor leagues that they’ve already contracted, minor league, you know, clubs. But you don’t want to also sort of trample on or step over the traditions of the minor leagues, especially in leagues like the Southern League, where, you know, those are, and the Texas League. Even areas where those teams are so ingrained in their communities that you don’t want to supersede those as well.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, you know, that’s a good point. You know, it reminds me of, you know, when they did do the contraction in the, you know, in the minor leagues, they changed all the names of the leagues and then that lasted for about a year and then they all went back to the. Their old names, you know, so, yeah, there’s a, there’s a tradition there. And that tradition is hard to break.

Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s something that’s important for sure. The only reason if you do expand, if you. That’s the goal for Manfred, that’s the obvious goal. He wants at least two more teams. He wants to have 32 teams. With expansion is going to come realignment. You have to realign the leagues. If you add two more teams, it can’t just be, you know, put one in the National League, put one in the American League and everybody’s happy. There’s, there’s geographic and rivalry concerns with all of this. I think, you know, I’ve seen some models and I’ve seen some proposals out there that have been pretty interesting. You know, one of them has a realignment that would have the Guardians playing in a division with Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Washington. So no more rivalry games with or no more season long multiple meetings and series against the White Sox, Twins, Royals and Tigers. You know, these are teams that Cleveland has played for 100 years against Detroit and Chicago. You know, you’ve, you’ve gotta, you talk about not wanting to mess with tradition in terms of expansion. Realignment would really sort of fly in the face of tradition.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, definitely. That, that new, you know, the so called new division with Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Washington. Joe, that does nothing for me. You know, I like the idea of Cleveland and Pittsburgh in the same division. I think that’d be great. You know, I’d like to, you know, whenever they played each other in interleague play, I thought it was really, you know, a good vibe, a good rivalry. But what is Cleveland doing with Baltimore and Washington? Well, that does, you know, that doesn’t ring a bell for me. I got to Tell you I’m a traditionalist or to a certain degree I’m a traditionalist and just, you know, just shaking up the, you know, the whole, you know, the 30 teams and like rearranging them and what for? What are we trying to do here? What’s the end game here?

Joe Noga: Well, I think you want to keep the expanded playoffs. That’s something that’s important to Manfred because that’s a huge moneymaker and it would, it would realign things. You would have, you know, eight, four team divisions in sort of an east, west thing. And it would also something we, you got to talk about here is the potential of eliminating American and National Leagues. Now the American League and the National League are institutions that are 125 years old. Think about that. They’ve been around for as long as guys have been picking up bats and gloves. You’re talking about eliminating the, the potential for eliminating AL and nl and how do you do that in terms of, you know, you think about awards. Awards are tied to players contracts. This would, this would, you would really need a buy in from the players union if you’re going to eliminate the, the American and National League sort of standards. And I don’t know if I think a lot of players are like you, they’re okay with, you know, maybe changing a franchise’s name. But when you, when you’re talking about eliminating the National League and the American League, they might not buy in on that.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I mean, what happens with all the records, you know, the National League records, American League records, Who sorts all that out? Who is, you know, I mean that, that’s a big, big step. But you know, I mean, you know, Joe, I couldn’t tell you a division in the NFL anymore. I mean, you know, they changed the names there, you know, and you know, they, they realigned. You know, people, you know, teams went here, teams went there. You know, the only thing that counts is the games. The same thing with the NBA. I mean, it seems like those divisions change every year. Right. Almost every five years are renamed. So, you know, I mean, I think you could get used to it. But you know, baseball is baseball. You know, I mean, it’s, it’s been around longer than any of those sports.

Joe Noga: But you’re talking about the NBA and the NFL as those are more homogenous leagues. It’s, it’s very much more of a blended sort of league as opposed to baseball has always been American League, National League. And there was, there was a time when the two never intermingled before. Interleague play. You know, players never saw each other until the World Series, that kind of thing. And it’s gotten better over time. I think baseball has recognized that there are benefits that outweigh sort of being separate like that. And they’ve, they’ve progressed towards it and especially the development within the last, you know, three to four years of a balanced schedule of every team plays every other team at least once a year. And you sort of need to keep that kind of thing in, you know, in play here. I think any sort of realignment would have to keep the idea of a balanced schedule intact. It might even have the, the added benefit. I think some people would say. I’ve seen proposals out there where they can track games off the schedule. Instead of playing 162, you’re playing 156 games. 156 game schedule. With a 32 team league, you would eliminate the need for four game series. Every game, every series would be a three game series. Now I know, I see the look on your face as a, as a sports writer, as a, as a beat writer for a major league team. Three game series are perfect. Four game series is way too much. You’re sitting in a city for, you know, four maybe five days and you’ve had your fill. But the benefit from a 156 game schedule as opposed to 1 2, you could play all three game series and if you, you would start around the same, around the same period of time, you could work in an every week off day for every team. Every team would have an off day once a week. If that was the case.

Paul Hoynes: It’s it. That makes sense, Joe. But would the owners willing, are they willing to give up those six extra games? You know what, six times 30, that’s 180. What I mean, I mean that’s a lot of games. That’s a lot of money. That’s a lot of revenue.

Joe Noga: Well, you would think it would be three home and three road loss for each team. So you’re only, if you’re, if you’re a, an owner, you’re really only losing the revenue from three home games. And I think with a realignment that would keep teams like Cleveland playing Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Washington, the travel is so much easier for, for that. And you’re talking about a realignment that would have both New York teams playing in the same division against Boston and Philadelphia. The travel there is incredibly cheaper. Really, the only team that would, would suffer, not suffer, but couldn’t get out of its own way on that is like Seattle, which is way the heck up in the Northwest. And their, their travel expenses are astronomical regardless of how you, you realign. But I think that’s a, that’s a way to pitch that to the owners is yeah, you’d lose revenue, but look at what you’re gaining back in terms of not having to fly.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah.

Joe Noga: To, to Seattle twice, you know, once a year or, you know, whatever. So yeah, I think there’s, there’s a cost benefit analysis that the, the owners are, are really good at running through and I think they would do that. The idea of, of realignment, I just to me, losing those rivalries, losing the, the ability to go to, you know, Detroit, Chicago, Kansas City, Minnesota, every year we know we’re going to be there at least, you know, twice a year at this point. It used to be even more, but you know, hey, the players like they’ve got their, their hangouts in those cities. They’ve got their places they like to go. I think you get some pushback on the players from that.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, you might. Joe. I. Do you really think the players care about the American and National League? I, I think if you put a schedule in front of those guys, 162 games you’re playing here, you’re playing there. I don’t even know if they’d really care. I think there it’s just another game. Right. But who knows? I mean, I’m sure there’s a lot of traditionalists among the players that, you know, they have, they would have some concern about, you know, abolishing the American and National League, but in the end they get paid to play.

Joe Noga: Yeah, Max Scherzer would probably have something to say about it. You know, the vocal ones in the players union and the guys who would get together there would be several. The, the younger guys. And look, Major League Baseball is full of younger guys now. Guys who don’t have that, that sort of platform like a Max Scherzer would have or Clayton Kershaw, guys like that who come out and be vocal about it. I think Rob Manfred can endure getting yelled at by Bryce Harper. That’s over an entirely different area in terms of the salary cap there. So. Okay, so, you know, the idea of eliminating these, these natural rivalries, but also sort of encouraging, you know, a new rivalry. Like you said with Pittsburgh. It’s only a two hour drive, man, and it’s a beautiful ballpark to go, go see a game at. I am sure that Pittsburgh would all be all in favor of taking Clevelanders money for, you know, twice a year in A couple of three game series at PNC Park.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I think there’s more of a spark between Pittsburgh and Cleveland than Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, which, you know, we’ve seen. You know, we play the home and away series every year against the Reds. I think probably the Pirates is more of a rivalry situation.

Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s sort of. Well, I mean, bad beer and ugly women. You gotta go to Pittsburgh.

Paul Hoynes: But then you got Tito down there too. So you got Tito that makes it into Tito Factor.

Joe Noga: But how much longer are you gonna have Tito down there? Realistically, the division that they’re proposing or that I’ve seen proposals of, has the Cubs, Reds, White Sox and Cardinals all in one division there. And that’s a National League or a Western Division sort of set up. So you keep that Cubs Cardinals rivalry. You keep that Cubs White Sox rivalry intact. The, the Great Lakes Division would encapsulate Minnesota, Milwaukee, Detroit and Toronto. And, you know, I, I kind of like that as well, so that, you know, that’s a kind of wish Cleveland could be in on that division and maybe put Milwaukee in with the Cubs, you know, White Sox and Cardinals. But, I don’t know, it’s all geared towards that, that Northeast Division where it’s, you know, you want to keep the Mets and the Yankees and the Red Sox all in one division, so they play each other multiple times a year and they make, you know, every appearance on Sunday night baseball or National League or nationally televised games as well.

Paul Hoynes: Joe, Joe, one more thing about realignment. You know, back in, what, 1994 when they formed the AL Central, you know, Dick Jacobs did not want to leave the AL east. You know, like we’re saying here, he had all those, you know, traditional rivalries with the Yankees and, you know, the Yankees in Baltimore and Boston. He didn’t want, you know, he did. He didn’t want to see those teams only come to Cleveland once, you know, once a year, twice a year. Those were big revenue generators for him. But they moved to the. Dan o’ Dowden and Daniel Dowd and John Hart convinced him to go to the Central. And it turned out to be a bonanza for the, for the, for the guardian. So, you know, as much as I’m a traditionalist, I guess you can’t really turn up your nose completely at realignment.

Joe Noga: Yeah. And you kind of have to, you know, play chess instead of checkers and, you know, look ahead to what could be, as opposed to what you would be leaving, leaving behind just to refute Dick Jacobs there. Baseball went ahead and stuck in terms of. In terms of Cleveland only seeing New York and Boston, you know, once a year, they went that step further. And now the. It seems like the Guardians only get to play the Yankees and the Red Sox in April when the weather’s crummy and nobody comes out to the ballpark anyways. I get the idea, but it was sort of like an extra punishment from the league is. Oh, yeah. The teams that generate all that revenue and, you know, sell out ballparks all over the place here. Play the Yankees and the Dodgers in April. That’s. That’s your punishment. Yeah.

Paul Hoynes: When it’s. When it’s 30 degrees, it’s no fun.

Joe Noga: For the reporters, either. All right, Hoynsie, that’s going to wrap up today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. We will have much more to say about expansion and realignment over the. The next several. We’ve got a whole off season coming up to talk about that, so we’ll be sure to do that. But we will check in with you again after. After this week weekend in. In Texas, where the. The Guardians really need to win two out of three.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, Joe, thanks a lot, buddy.